OT: Ok, we’re rollin’. Well we spoke a little outside about everything that’s been goin’ on. Probably the biggest thing that comes to mind is you, yourself; you’re still here.

Allan: Yeah. I’m like the scab that just won’t go away. You pick at it and pick at it…

OT: That’s an interesting way of putting it. Through all the different projects that you’ve been a part of, Scaterd Few, Spy Glass Blue, HR’s back-up band, different business companies and record labels and so forth, you’re still around, you’ve seen a lot of people come and go. As an artist, obviously, you have a particular style of music that you’re delivering that is definitely not mainstream, not necessarily the popular thing to do right now. Why do you keep going? Do you think there’s still a market for this music?

Allan: Oh, sure. The latest Spy Glass, Loud As Feathers… I think Shadows was a lot darker than Loud As Feathers. Loud As Feathers is a little brighter, a little bit easier to digest. I’m still true to the art form and I’m still true to my lyrical approach. Musically it should be more palatable for most people, a little easier to put on the radio. It’s edgy new-wave but it still has the roots of Bowie and even Peter Murphy in it. So that’s always gonna be accessible to some extent, it’s always gonna still be relative with bands like The Hives and The Vines or even White Stripes. Bowie’s new record, Heathen, which sold more than a million copies, he’s never sold more than that. Heathen was the highest charting record since Let’s Dance. So yeah, there’s still a lot of people out there that want relevant art as opposed to the label’s force fed flavor of the month. I mean it’s hard for me to believe bands like Linkin Park or even Korn have longevity. Or like Staind, a really bad rehash of Pearl Jam which was really bad to begin with. They can only last so long. Rap-core can only last so long before it starts hybridizing and devouring itself to find something new. They’re still gonna have to go back to something that’s tried and tested. That’s why long hair bands are always gonna thrive because that’s just socially the mental make-up of a lot of people, y’know, Black Sabbath, Led Zepelin, that type of thing. They’re always gonna go back, to some extent, to the artier side: The Beatles, Iggy Pop, Bowie, Mark Bolen, T-Rex, New York Dolls: punk rock, that’s never gonna go away.

OT: I’ve spoken with quite a few artists in regard to this and the common belief is that this whole new metal movement will disappear within the next 5 years. There is no longevity because record labels aren’t making career bands anymore.

Allan: Right, exactly. It’s not a career band. If you get signed to Epic or Atlantic or whatever label you want, you’re not selling a million records first time out, they’re gonna get rid of you. They’re not career-minded right now.

OT: And if one record sells a million and the next one doesn’t…

Allan: You’re screwed, yeah.

OT: Because of the way the internet is now, artists can market themselves more effectively, in a lot of ways. Most believe that the record label’s days are numbered.

Allan: To an extent, the big five will always..., I mean they’re the big five. Yes, Hollywood as a whole, not just the music industry, has been really slow to incorporate the internet in its business model. But the big 5 are always gonna be there, I mean Courtney Love just signed to Virgin, that tells you something. There’s a machine that we, as artists, need to be a part of because it actually helps us prosper. You can be an independent without distribution and a rigorous tour schedule; you still need the help of the machine because people are dependent on the machine: distribution, marketing, promotion, radio. The machine does that very well. As an independent artist you’re going to have limited reach or scope regarding radio and distribution. If you’re an independent with a small distribution deal, half your time is spent trying to get your money. And a lot of these distribution companies will go, ‘Ok, we’ll carry 500 units, but we won’t pay you on those 500 units, we’ll pay you based on the reorder. That’s a big investment in hopes of getting something out of distribution. A lot of bands can’t do that, a lot of bands can’t advertise, they don’t have the money, independently. So you have to, somehow I think, to some extent, get involved with the machine to see some sort of return, or even just to be able to do this thing.

OT: Obviously, we’ve established, there are people out there who still listen to this type of music, but it’s not the majority…

Allan: Never has been.

OT: Do you find it hard to still compete with what’s going on in the larger scope of things, or do you feel there’s maybe a sub-culture that exists, a ‘safe zone’ if you will, where artists such as yourself can continue to thrive?

Allan: Like today, 2003, Spy Glass Blue, it depends what we’re talking about. There’s certain reasons why it’s hard for me to compete with say a Skillet or a Benjamin’s Gate. Or are we talking about, for example, Scaterd Few didn’t have any problem competing, we could pretty much blow away any of our secular peers, we could hold our own. HR could’a called Fishbone, he could‘a called Jane’s Addiction band members, he could’a called 24-7 Spies. No, he called me, so depending on what we’re talking about. Why would it be difficult for me to compete against like a Skillet or a Benjamin’s Gate or something like that? I was explaining this to a Christian record company not that long ago: if you put me in the same clothing as John from Skillet and give us the same exact songs to play, they’re gonna embrace John and they’re gonna freak out on me. For a very obvious reason: John is one of them, dressed up. I’m the real McCoy and that freaks people out. Even if we’re wearing the same clothes, playing the same exact song, one is posing and the other, it’s coursing through his veins. And that particular market are all posing, that record buying public and that scene is looking for safe WASP (White-Anglo-Saxon-Protestant) entertainment. I’m neither. I’m not safe and I’m not a WASP. I know that sounds maybe a little harsh, but it is the case.

OT: No, it makes sense actually. Outside we talked about churches having a problem with image but there’s a lot of stereotyping going on in music as well, when an artist looks a certain way, or plays a certain kind of music. For instance, when Spy Glass Blue came through here on the Shadows tour, the venue manager that night came up to you guys and said, “There’s no pitting.” And you said, “It’s cool, man, we’re not a punk band.” But see, just by looking at you he assumed you were a punk band.

Allan: Right, well the guys in ‘N Sync are wearing haircuts that I used to get beat up for when I was in Junior High, for having the same haircut. Punk Rock is a mall item, you can buy Monkey Boots in the mall, Doc Marten’s been bought out by Adidas. None of us thought Punk Rock would or anything remotely close to that would be around in 20 years, I never thought that. This Power Pop thing, these guys are walkin’ around with their baseball caps tilted to the side wearing baggy shorts and a t-shirt and they’re Punk Rock? When did Punk Rock become so safe?! I don’t understand that? Where’s the angst? Where’s that ‘kill your Mom and screw your dog’ thing? (Laughter) These guys are talkin’ about, “Oh my girlfriend and this and that and I got drunk last night and I had to crawl through the window.” Wow, that’s rock.

OT: So do you have a problem with stereo-typing, in any way?

Allan: Well I have a problem with that kind of stuff being called Punk Rock, for example.

OT: You’re not alone.

Allan: But I mean, that’s just a personal thing. There’s always gonna be a stereo-type, you have to have some sort of brand, identity, or some sort of brand-slogan-logo thing to sell the product. What’s Marilyn Manson? What are they sayin’ about him? Are they sayin’ he’s Goth? I don’t know. Or is he shock-rock? I mean, you know what I’m saying? I didn’t know Blink 182 was a punk band until they told me. We have punk rock bands on this tour that aren’t Punk Rock, what are you gonna do? Tell ‘em they’re not Punk Rock? That’s not very Punk Rock. (Laughter) But there’s always gonna be stereo-typing because they have to tell ‘em that it’s something.

OT: In a sense it sounds like there’s more politics involved than there used to be.

Allan: Mmm, yeah, but it’s also trying to sell something. Every band that can possibly do it or wants to be, if you’re not white and you’re in a band you’re going to try to do the P.O.D. thing, right? They’re considered new metal according to Revolver Magazine. Ok?

OT: Ok, new-metal… (Laughter)

Allan: New metal! You have to call it something in order to categorize it, in order to sell it, in order for the consumer to be able to identify it.

OT: It’s funny ‘cause when I talk to certain musicians I like to ask them, ‘What do you guys call yourselves? Most everybody says, ‘Well, we’re just a rock band.’

Allan: Well, the only rock band on this tour is All But Screaming, and they’re playing right before us and they’re a good rock band, everything else is a hybrid of something. I don’t think Spy Glass is very much of a hybrid it’s just pretty much straight-forward edgy new-wave with a slight post-punk edge to it. But that would be a hybrid! (Laughter)

OT: I suppose it is. Now going back to your influences…

Allan: Bowie, Adam Ant, Pete Shelly, Peter Murphy, Bow House all that stuff.

OT: T-Rex.

Allan: T-Rex, yeah. It’s all the same thing, all those bands are from, well, the same block.

OT: Most of the youth today, bands, musicians, etc. have no idea who any of those artists are.

Allan: None.

OT: Avril Levine, gets up to announce the nominees for Best Male Vocalist on the MTV music awards and says, “David Bow-(as in bow-wow)-ie. You could feel people’s hearts stopping throughout the building.

Allan: You know, even in an interview he realized, “Oh it’s Boo-ie, I’ve been sayin’ it wrong all these years?” ‘Cause he took the name from the knife and that was Jim Bowie (Boo-ie), so he said, “Oh, I’ve been sayin’ it wrong all these years.” What’s weirder than that, the same, what’s her name?

OT: Avril.

Allan: She said she brought Punk Rock to her generation. (Laughter) That’s hilarious.

OT: What do you think would be the reaction if you were to take some of these kids back in time to when punk first got started?

Allan: I’ve got a great answer for that. The band that I just…, the line-up that I had the beginning of this year, likened them unto a…, their main influence was like 1977 Punk Rock, Sex Pistols basically, The Vibrators, that type of thing. So we’re in a hotel room, on tour, and mind-you they’re not even 21, these people I’m talkin’ about. And The White Stripes are playin’ every night on Conan O’Brien, that’s pretty large. I don’t care what music you’re playin’, I don’t care what band you are, if you can be on Conan O’Brien every single night, five nights a week, that’s huge, that’s so huge. It was The White Stripes and do I like The White Stripes? Well yeah. Why? Cause she (Meg White) can’t play drums, but she’s still playing drums, that’s very cool, he’s (Jack White) a throwback from 1977, what is that, “I’m In Love With A Girl” sounded like Peach Elly from the Buzz Cocks, that automatically drew my attention. So they’re on Conan, so this is exciting and I’m watchin’ it and enjoyin’ myself and she (SBG’s drummer at the time) goes, “You know what’s really scary?” And I go, “What?” And she goes, “That you’re actually into this.” And I’m like, “What’s scarier is that you don’t even understand.” (Laughter) “What you’re basically telling me is that if you were at your age in 1977 you would not have liked Punk Rock - yet you think you’re so Punk Rock today. Because, in my opinion, White Stripes is about as close to Punk Rock pretty much that’s out there right now. It’s raw, it’s stripped down its no frills it’s pure. I think its pretty ballsy…, no bass player? And she said that, “It’s scary that you like this.” I thought, ‘Wow, you don’t get it. You don’t get it, which means you wouldn’t have gotten it back then.’ Because no one was into it, in ’77, ’78, ’79, and those of us that were, wow, talk about fringe, y’know?

OT: (Sarcastically) I’m so looking forward to the future of music…

Allan: There is… a future? (Laughter)

OT: (Laughter) that’s what I’m getting at. I mean if people don’t remember what was then, how can they create what’s now?

Allan: Man the best thing that can happen to music in the future is this whole frickin’ Creed, Staind, Pearl Jam line that’s tryin’ to… that’s just got to… it has to stop. I don’t know, what’s the appeal of really bad singing? Not only are they really ugly guys, but they sing horrible, and they’re sellin’ millions and millions of units. Did I just blow any chance of bein’ on Wind-Up? (Laughter) (Lots of Laughter) You know? And this rap-core thing, it’s just old, come on. I think the most exciting thing that could happen is, well you know everything recycles itself, just like the ocean floor or farmers should with their crops. And there’s a little hint of that with the White Stripes and the Hives. A couple bands I just heard on the radio here in L.A. and they’re playing the side stage at the KROQ Weenie Roast, they’re throwbacks to like ’78-‘81 it’s like a pseudo-new wave type of whatever. And I think that’s cool because, I don’t know, I think that’s important.

OT: Hearing you refer to bands like the Hives, the Vines and White Stripes, seems like this may be another British Invasion. It seems as though Europe’s always got the upper-hand in music.

Allan: I think so, I’ve always thought so. I’ve always enjoyed it more than what Americans put out. Most of my influences or record collection-they’re European bands. Super Grass, Space Hog.

OT: Why do you think that is?

Allan: Why? I think they actually have genuine things to bitch about, for one. Two, Christians can drink in a pub. Three, they actually had a war in their borders that wasn’t that long ago. I think America is cut off from global reality, to an extent. Anyone who’s lived abroad can attest that it’s a different horror back there. I wonder how people in the Mid West understand the movies Hollywood makes, they’re talking about stuff… Ikea. You know how many people didn’t understand that whole Ikea section in Fight Club? What’s an Ikea? I don’t know what that is. It’s like a different planet, the U.S., I mean I love the U.S., I live here. I’ve lived abroad and this is pretty cool over here, but the rest of the world has got some real issues. I think life is just maybe a little bit more tangible. We have a lot of stuff here in the U.S. to ‘deflect’ ourselves with. I think that’ll change hard one day; it’s inevitable.

OT: In keeping along the same lines, as artists, you said Christians can drink in a pub… there are a lot of differences between the U.S. and European cultures and I find it amazing how things differ depending on where you are living. There must be more to the shaping of a society than geographical location?

Allan: Well yeah. If you’re livin’ in a country where the negative spiritual realm is actually something you know exists, you’re not gonna really have too many problems believing in a positive spiritual realm. For example here in the States, a lot of people don’t really believe there’s a devil or that there is a negative spiritual realm. So why jump on board to a positive spiritual realm? Whereas in a lot of third world countries they’ve grown up with all sorts of weird paganism and witchcraft and voodoo, all that kind of weird stuff. So the negative spiritual realm is something that’s right there; it’s tangible. I think that makes for a whole different type or breed of Christianity or ‘church mentality’. Some countries it’s illegal to even use the word Christian or have a meeting as a group of Christians. That’s going to quicken those people. If there’s a chance of you getting arrested and killed going to a meeting being at that meeting or coming home from that meeting, there’s a pretty good chance you’re dealing with some real hard-core, ‘I want to do this because I’m intense about it.’ people. Here, hell, everybody’s a Christian and what you do doesn’t really matter ‘cause you’re ok. I’ve never bought into that. I think the best thing that could happen, as weird as this may sound, I think this country needs some more shaking up-especially the church. If you go to a church with 300 people, maybe 75 of them are actually really there with a clue, the rest just go because, well that’s what they’re supposed to do. I think if things came down to where it was illegal to be a Christian, I think a whole lot of people would get out of the way. I think that’d be great. I’m the kind of guy that says, “You have no intention of really doing anything about this, why don’t you just go home? You’re in the way.” So, yeah, I know for a fact what goes on in other countries and that type of society and that type of real world reality does affect that, it will affect your art; it will affect your belief system, whether or not you can drink a beer, truly trivial stuff. You don’t allow this homeless man to come into your church because he smells like piss or you’re not allowing this guy with a mohawk to come into your church because, well he’s not the kind of people you want in your church, but you can drink a beer. Those aren’t issues, the fact that you’re drinkin’ a beer’s an issue. There’s something completely lopsided about this Christianity thing in the United States, and I’m not a big fan of it.

OT: Saying stuff like you just said, obviously you come under fire from…

Allan: The religious? Yeah. What can you do?

OT: What can you do? For your viewpoints, you’ve been very vocal your entire career about what you believe and where you stand and you’ve come under a lot of fire. Has anybody actually listened to what you had to say and come around?

Allan: Yeah, yeah but they’re not gonna tell you about that. (Laughter) The big deal in ’91 was when I confessed that I smoked pot in an interview. Last thing anybody heard was that within 9 months I had actually quit pot. It’s just like any other thing, they want to do their own thing, and they have their own agenda. I was never interested in playing the game called Contemporary Christian Music. I came under fire from a lot of people, the main thing was they were afraid I was going to expose them for what they were, because I knew too much, and I rocked the boat too much. If they can make me look bad…, I mean they’re pissed because I’m still here.

OT: Right.

Allan: They don’t like that, because if I am the enemy, why am I still here? If I am the devil in disguise, why am I still playin’ Christian festivals that are by invitation only? Either I’m wrong and so are all these other people, or maybe you’re just, like, really weird.

OT: So you feel your ministry’s been affected by it?

Allan: Well I know for a fact, I get feedback from what happens from these people. They came to a show or bought a record or something. Real live things happen out there and I think it’s pretty cool, that’s one of the main reasons I keep doing it. To hear that lesbians are no longer lesbians because whatever, or hear that people are no longer drug addicts because of “Glass God” or something like that. The fact that you have a relative existence and that your life, or your work, is actually sinking into somebody’s train of thought or they’re considering… See music is that part, you’re singing the lyrics, and it’s almost like a little chant-mantra type of thing or whatever. And if they actually like you and your work they take it into account, it speaks to them, they take it to heart. So I want to make sure that what I say is relevant and has some sort of foundation in truth as well and I try to do something when I write because I know there’s people out there that actually wait for it and they make it more important than maybe it should be. And so because there are people like that there may be some sense of responsibility there, but I don’t think we should be role models. Or they killed themselves because they were listening to a record that was saying… Oh come on, that’s just bad parenting. It’s a strong art form so I want to be responsible, relevant and offer something, not just a good song, y’know? And the fact that it actually affects people, that’s pretty cool.

OT: Definitely, definitely. So you’ll continue to keep doing what you’re doing?

Allan: As long as I’m allowed to I’ll do this because I’ve got my own drills and bosses to answer to, y’know?

OT: Sounds good to me. I appreciate it, thank you for your time.

Allan: No problem.

OT: Looking forward to seeing you guys play tonight, it’s been awhile.