BILL O'REILLY, HOST: Tonight, the
lead singer of the rock group U2, the legendary Bono.
He has used his fame in a political way, forming a
group called DATA, which stands for Debt AIDS Trade
Africa. The group tries to help that continent, which
is desperately poor, as you know, and ravaged with the
HIV virus. What most people don't know is that Bono
has worked with both Democrats and Republicans on
Capitol Hill. He joins us now.
So are you a non-partisan guy?
BONO: I'm a non-partisan guy.
O’REILLY: You don't root?
BONO: I don't root anymore. Yes,
I’ve stopped rooting. I'm rooting for people that
don't have a vote and for people whose faces we don't
see.
O’REILLY: OK. So you're not going
out with Springsteen to try to get Kerry elected,
you’re not going to do that?
BONO: I'm not going to do that. I
love Bruce Springsteen, but I’m not going to do that.
I put all that behind me when I went to work for the
world’s poorest and most vulnerable. That’s what I
have to do. It’s hard for an Irish rock star, though,
sometimes to shut up.
(LAUGHTER)
O’REILLY: Well, you don't have to
shut up, it’s just about you have to make your points
in I think a broader way than saying, I like this guy,
the other guy is the devil. I think that alienates
people. And you need bipartisan support, and indeed
you have bipartisan support in the United States, do
you not?
BONO: Yes, yes -- no. We've worked
very hard to have it. And it’s difficult. We found the
one thing that both parties can agree on, which is
that it’s important right now for America that the
world sees the greatness of America through their AIDS
medicines, through their Peace Corps, through the real
America, I see the America I was a fan of.
That’s the America my father…
O’REILLY: Do you really believe
America is a great country?
BONO: Yes, I do.
O’REILLY: Because a lot of
Europeans do not.
BONO: Yes -- no, I mean, I'm like
an annoying fan. I'm like the one that reads the liner
notes on the CD. I’m the one that -- I read the
Declaration of Independence before a speaking tour we
did on AIDS in the Midwest. I've read the
Constitution. I've read these poetic tracks. And I
suppose, you know, I'm just going around trying to
remind people that their country -- why it is great,
and in case they forget, why it’s great. Because the
United States that I love is like the Statue of
Liberty with its arms open, give me your tired, your
poor and huddled masses. It’s not the continent
behaving like an island, which sometimes it behaves
like.
O’REILLY: All right. Let’s get
specific now. The United States gives more money to
poor people than any other country, raw dollars -- not
per capita, raw dollars we give, and we have given.
We've freed billions of people all over the world. But
we have now a problem in this country, in the United
States. We're fighting a very intense war that takes
an enormous amount of money to fight, just to protect
ourselves from people who would kill us. So that the
largesse of the country is skeptical.
They want the money to go where it's best needed.
Now, Africa is your cause. That is what you are front
and center on, correct? Africa?
BONO: Yes. I wouldn't call it a
cause, though.
O'REILLY: Well, whatever you want
to say.
BONO: It's an emergency. 69,000
Africans dying every day of a preventable, treatable
disease.
O'REILLY: I've been to Africa as
you. I'm not as widely traveled as you, but it is a
corrupt continent, it's a continent in chaos. We can't
deliver a lot of the systems that we send there. Money
is stolen.
Now, when you have a situation like that, where
governments don't really perform consistently, where
there's just corruption everywhere, how can you cut
through that?
BONO: It's funny, we worked with
this administration on two things. Historic AIDS
initiative, and a thing called the Millennium
Challenge, which is a way of increasing aide flows to
Africa, but only to countries that are tackling
corruption. So really important, and not well
described initiative.
O'REILLY: So like Uganda, which is
really trying to do something, the money would flow
there.
BONO: Yes.
O'REILLY: But in Sierra Leone,
wouldn't go there.
BONO: Exactly.
O'REILLY: OK. I like that. Because
that, at least, gives you a chance. You know, your
friend, Bob Geldof you know.
BONO: Yes.
O'REILLY: Remember, he raised all
that money with the Live Aid he did. Very little of it
got to anybody.
BONO: Well, look, I've seen what
it did. I've been to Africa, I've seen -- it did a
lot. But the reason I got involved in this whole
business that I'm in now is largely to do with Live
Aide, and it engaged me and engaged my generation to
realize that we actually -- we can't escape what's
going on in Africa, and that we have to look at
sometimes the structural problems of the poverty of
Africa.
And it's true, Live Aide, we made -- I think $200
million on the English side. And we thought, wow,
we've cracked it. What an amazing thing. And then we
realize that Africa pays $200 million every week on
old debts that it was lent by -- you know, for Cold
War reasons, you know, during the Cold War to dodgy
dictators, and we were still collecting those debts,
even though it was two generations later.
O'REILLY: Yes. And all the money
in Switzerland with Mobutu and all these guys. Now,
let's talk a little AIDS.
BONO: But there was corruption
there on our part. You don't understand that.
O'REILLY: I don't know if it was
corruption.
BONO: Not just on their part.
O'REILLY: I don't think you guys
understood what you were getting into in the Live Aid
situation. Oh, you mean there was corruption on the
USA's part?
BONO: No, it wasn't just the U.S.,
but Europe, all the rich countries lending this money
willy-nilly and then demanding it back a generation
later. It was just a mistake.
O'REILLY: Let's talk about AIDS,
because this is a very controversial topic within the
United States itself. Now, we've got the epidemic
under control here, primarily by education and
frightening people into safe sex and all of that. In
Africa, the education is almost nil. And that there's
a tradition of men, as you know, not having sex
protected, because of some kind of macho thing
involved in it.
Now, Americans are going to say, I don't want my
tax dollars going over to a civilization or a society
that no matter what you tell them, they're going to
continue to do disruptive practices. How do you answer
that?
BONO: Look, if you see a car
crash, somebody's lying there in the middle of the
road bleeding and it turns out they're a drunk driver,
you're still going to call an ambulance. We can't make
these judgments about entire civilizations. We try to
re-educate people, we try to deal with the problem.
And by the way, not dealing with the problem with
something like AIDS, which metastasized, which grows
on a geometric level, is really foolhardy. Because it
will be more expensive to deal with it later.
O'REILLY: Look, you can't force
the truck drivers who are spreading AIDS all over
Africa, because they visit the hookers and then they
drive their truck from one to the other to the other.
You can't force them to use condoms.
BONO: Let me tell you something --
just on truck drivers. Because we did this tour
through the Midwest, because politicians in D.C. said
Americans don't care about what's happening in Africa.
They don't care what's happening with this AIDS stuff.
We believe they were wrong.
We went all over, schools, you know, colleges,
churches. I was in a truck stop, and there was this
big, big guy, big truck driver, tattoos over his eye,
you know, like a big, big guy. And he heard what we
were talking about, and he interrupted us and he said
did you say that 50 percent of all truck drivers are
going blind, they've all got this death sentence of
AIDS.
BONO: And I said yes, they had
some stupid practices, but they're all going to die.
He says I don't want to pass judgment on people, they
made mistakes. He said if you need someone to drive
trucks over there, you've got me.
O'REILLY: Well, Americans are very
generous people. And I think it's the kids that are --
that's my focus, it's the important children.
BONO: But we can't even judge
mentalism, and we're not wrong in the statements
you've made to excuse our inaction. That's not going
to fly...
O'REILLY: We have to take action
that's...
BONO: God is not going to accept
that as an answer and history is not going to accept
that as an answer.
O'REILLY: True. But action has to
be efficient and people in the United States, most of
us, are struggling to make our own lives solvent, and
to ask them to give more money to people who aren't
going to help themselves is foolhardy. But I do agree
we have to find a way. Why hasn't the United Nations
-- why hasn't the United Nations taken a more
aggressive posture in fighting the AIDS epidemic which
they are cut out to do?
BONO: I don't think that's true. I
mean, the Global Health Fund to fight T.B., AIDS and
malaria was set up by Kofi Annan. And this
administration is funding it, it's actually got
bipartisans...
O'REILLY: Do you think you're
doing a good job over there?
BONO: No one's doing a good enough
job. Let me just say this. I have myself seen people
queuing up to die, three in a bed, two on top, one
underneath.
O'REILLY: Right.
BONO: People who don't want to
even admit they have the virus, because it's such a
stigma. They say they've got T.B. When you see people
dying like that, you just -- these -- these -- you
know, you put away all your -- you just want to reach
out and do the right thing. We have these drugs, these
anti-retroviral drugs are great advertisements for
America...
O'REILLY: Now what do you want
America to do?
BONO: Get the message because
these are great advertisements for America products.
For your technology, your ingenuity. Imagine China,
when Europe was going through the Bubonic Plague and
lost -- 1/3 of Europe died in the Middle Ages to the
Black Death. Imagine, say, China had a treatment for
the Black Death and hadn't because it was difficult or
expensive. What would we think of China now?
O'REILLY: You want American drug
companies then to send to Africa all the drugs they
can possibly...
BONO: I'm not asking drug
companies to behave like philanthropists. I'm saying
we, our governments, United States and Europe, have to
deal with this problem. If we don't, we will reap a
very ill wind. This is -- it's not just being bleeding
hearts here. The strategic implications. There's 10
million AIDS orphans in Africa right now. There will
be 20 by the end of the decade. 12 right now. This is
chaos. This is a consummating (ph) havoc, and the war
against terror, which you talk about every night, is
bound up in the war against poverty. I didn't say
that. Colin Powell said that.
O'REILLY: I agree.
BONO: And we have to join the dots
here.
O'REILLY: Let me ask you this. We
liberated Iraq from a terrible dictator, Saddam
Hussein. And the polls show that most Iraqis don't
appreciate America's sacrifice in doing that. Do you
think Africans would appreciate if Americans actually,
you know, said, OK, we're going to suffer financially,
we're going to do what you want. Do you think we'd be
appreciated even if we did it?
BONO: I think it would turn around
the way the United States is seen in the world right
now. I think that's one thing as well as it just being
this great -- this awful thing. This is a chance for
the United States to redescribe itself to the rest of
the world, show its greatness, and respond to what is
the greatest health emergency in 600 years. I
absolutely believe that. And the people who are
watching this show, people all over America, they are
more interested in this than the politicians in D.C.
realize. I know this from...
O'REILLY: But they've been helpful
to you, the politicians in D.C.
BONO: Yes, they have. But they're
not talking. It's not on the news. It's not on the
agenda here. It's the greatest health crisis in 600
years but it's not on the news.
O'REILLY: But it's not their fault
when you've got the war on terror so intense and so --
look, if 9/11 didn't happen, you would have a much
easier time with your crusade.
BONO: I disagree.
O'REILLY: Really?
BONO: Yes. I disagree. Two things
happened on 9/11. There was -- the one that's
reported, of course, is the attack on America. But the
one that has not been reported, and reported with less
disgust, is what happened in the aftermath, which was
those pictures around the world of people jumping up
and down, celebrating the Twin Towers turning to dust.
One of the most disturbing -- they were the most
disturbing images for me as a fan and a person who
loves America.
A lot of people and this great country went. I
don't care who you are, a politician, you stop that.
How did this happen to us? How did this -- and this is
the America that liberated Europe? Not just liberated
Europe, we built Europe with the Marshall Plan which
cost, by the way, 1 percent GDP over four years.
That's when "Brand USA" was at its brightest.
Right now "Brand USA" has taken some blows and some
knocks. And I'm saying there's an opportunity here.
The Marshall Plan rebuilds Europe as a bulwark against
Sovietism in the Cold War. It was smart. It wasn't
just goodness of heart, which it also was. It was
smart. And I'm saying in a hot war, here's a chance
now to redescribe ourselves and be a bulwark against
other militarism.
O'REILLY: And you believe that the
world's negative opinion of America would change if
America took the lead to save people in Africa?
BONO: One hundred percent. They
are. America is taking the lead.
O'REILLY: But more aggressively.
BONO: I have to say this.
President Bush has done it, John Kerry is big on AIDS.
What we want here is to -- why is it not an emergency?
How can three of these a week, three Madison Square
Gardens a week, how can -- you know, a giant stadium
every two weeks disappearing, you know, a preventable,
treatable disease like AIDS, how can that not be an
emergency?
O'REILLY: Because those people
aren't in our eye line. Look at Darfur in the Sudan? I
submit to you that in theory, you are correct. And I'm
glad you're doing what your doing by the way. I admire
you greatly for doing it. But I think, in practice, it
becomes more complicated. And I think you're right. If
the United States got out in front of this, started to
introduce U.N. resolutions, that's the way to go. But
the world really has to come together.
BONO: They will on this. See, this
is a war -- this is winnable. There is actually --
it's really winnable. There's more lives at stake.
It's a war against a tiny little virus, as Bill Frist
says. But it's, in a way, it's the one we all agree
on. This is the one where the United States.
O'REILLY: Yes, who's going to say,
'Yes, I want the African kids to die.' Nobody. It's
just a matter of how engaged they're going to get. How
much they're going to feel. Because we, again, have
problems here that we have to take care of.
BONO: I understand that.
O'REILLY: Let me ask you a couple
of questions. I understand the late Jesse Helms, the
arch conservative, the late Jesse Helms of North
Carolina was a very big booster of your cause, is that
correct?
BONO: Yes. It's been amazing. I've
been really surprised. You know, I came at this from
-- you know, I grew up in a Labour household, you can
imagine in the north side of Dublin. I have all my
opinions. I have my opinions of conservatives, and
they weren't all good. And then I met some
conservatives that really turned me around on that.
They were really just conservatives. They were people
that will had their convictions that were different to
mine, but they held them, you know, from a true place.
Then I met Jesse Helms, who you know, who people in
(UNINTELLIGIBLE) wouldn't speak to me because I was
meeting Jesse Helms. And he did an extraordinary
thing. He did something no politician does. He
publicly apologized for the way he had thought about
the AIDS virus. He says, 'I've got it wrong.' And he
got emotional about it, and he turned it around. And
he made a lot of other people who were very judgmental
about AIDS...
O'REILLY: Look at it in a
different way.
BONO: ... look at it in a
different way.
O'REILLY: And our pal John Kasich
was a champion on the Hill when he was congressman
from Ohio, is that correct?
BONO: Well, absolutely. I mean, I
arrived in Washington, D.C. with Bobby Shriver, with a
Kennedy, and I was trying to get this done. And
somebody says, I think it was Arnold Schwarzenegger
said, you might need some other folks to balance it
up.
O'REILLY: Right. You got it in
John.
BONO: I meet John Kasich and it
helps. And look, it's very difficult to work both
sides of the aisle. But I'm telling you, this is the
one thing...
O'REILLY: That can bring everybody
together.
BONO: It works for people.
O'REILLY: I like it, and I think
it can be done. You're going to have to work hard to
get it done. Is that a rosary around your neck there?
Is that a rosary?
BONO: The pope gave me this, it's
a Michelangelo designed. You know, when the pope could
stand up and carry around this big cross, this is a
little miniature of him. And myself and Geldof and
Quincy Jones went to see him, and he swapped a pair of
my sunglasses for a rosary.
O'REILLY: I've never seen the pope
wear your sunglasses.
BONO: You know what, there was a
lot of photographs taken at that moment, because he
put them on.
O'REILLY: Well, look, I mean...
BONO: One day you might.
O'REILLY: You're certainly doing
God's work. I mean, I admire you very much for what
you're doing.
BONO: God must have a great sense
of humor to have me on board.
O'REILLY: No. No. We need people
like you to command a worldwide audience and to get
people at least thinking about this. And then we need
the politicians out here in the convention, in both
conventions to come up with a strategy. I do agree
that if America could take the lead, it would turn
public opinion around and help us in the war on
terror.
I’ll give you the last word on it.
BONO: It a really, really
important time right now in the world. And I'm a fan
of America, and my band comes here and we love it
here. But it’s dangerous around the world. We travel
around the world.
O’REILLY: Yes, it’s dangerous.
BONO: And my father grew up, and
his generation grew up, and they thought they were
American, they loved it so much. And I would just ask
Americans to think back when was the brand brightest.?
And I'll tell you when it was. As I said earlier, the
Marshall Plan, it cost 1 percent of the GDP. Right now
the United States is at 0.15 percent, and in the list
of the richest countries and what they give to the
poorest as a percentage, they are No. 22 in the list…
O’REILLY: OK. Well, we’ve…
BONO: Including private
philanthropy, it makes it like No. 15. This is a great
country, generous, generous, generous people. I think
if they think the money is not going to be wasted, if
it’s not going down a rathole, they're with us.
O’REILLY: All right, Bono.
BONO: Thank you.
O’REILLY: Thanks for coming in, a
pleasure to meet you.
BONO: All right.
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